The Shakey’s in Dallas, at least, in the early 60s had the kitchen in the middle and on the larger side served beer, but us kids had to go to the smaller side which was dry. Liquor and evidently beer rules were strange in those days in Texas.
Later living in Houston, in the mid 70s, I would pick up Shakeys to go and take to my GF’s apartment. The carry out box hadn’t been perfected, and was only corrugated cardboard flat sheets held together on the sides with a primitive and ineffective tab system. Driving home in my new Triumph TR7, I placed the pizza on the console and attempted to hold it down with my right elbow. Taking a S curve, without slowing down, the pie slid out of the box and landed on the passenger seat, the still bubbling cheese going further afield than the crust. The dairy product fused itself to the fabric. Never was sure if was petrified cheese on the seat, or melted synthetic fabric, but the scar was never removed.
The guy who towed your car when it left you on the side of the road (yes, I too had a TR7) noted the stain on the plaid fabric, later. "it looks like a rolling doorstop..." - my father
When I was a teenager, back in the 70s, my parents would take us to Shakey's a lot. It was a treat because, unlike hamburgers and hot dogs, you really couldn't make decent pizza at home back then. I don't recall much about the pizza but we were all addicted to those Mojo potatoes. The thing about kid's pizza is that parents usually kept it simple. They would usually order a pizza with pepperoni. (or a pizza where the other half was just cheese if someone didn't like pepperoni.) Then in college I was exposed to the Chicago style with tons of toppings. Usually now, the only time I have pizza is when they throw a pizza night at work where the bosses buy a bunch of cheap pizzas for us with a selection of pizzas with various toppings. (And get criticized at by the vegans for not having any decent vegan options.)
Thanks for the great article. Shakey's in Palm Springs, California was my formative pizza experience. I loved it. Big long tables with benches filled with baseball and softball teams celebrating their wins (or nursing their wounds over losses), families, music, a big window where you could watch the pizza makers at work, very large red plastic glasses filled with crushed ice and coke or your other favorite soft drink. This was around 1961 or so. They served wine from taps labeled "Burgundy" and "Chablis". In my memory the pizza was very good. Crispy crackerlike crust (delicious), good sauce and plenty of cheese. I'm not sure what I would make of it today but I remember it very fondly.
That's exactly the experience I remember growing up in Northern California in the late 60s and 70s. Exactly the same. And, like you, I'd be afraid to taste that pizza again because I remember it as being really good, and now I'm supposedly more sophisticated.
Thank you for the great comment and link. Knowing you're in Reno has made my life difficult because I now have to visit your pizzeria, but Reno is also home to one of my favorite restaurants, Louis Basque Corner. Too many choices for a one day visit. Cheers!
Norma and I hope someday to fulfill Madeline's dream- to bring the Mastro story to the general public and clarify how much Frank did to make pizza what it is today. I use a stack of original Blodgett 1000 ovens. Madeline said her father finished designing it he called them perfection and he would never design another oven. Hopefully we will meet someday, and share a pizza.
I was ten or eleven when I had my first pizza and it came out of a Chef-Boy-Ardee box bought by my father, a WWII vet, who wanted us to taste pizza. We kids loved it, not knowing any better. My second adult job was at a Shakey's Pizza Parlor which featured a player piano and Friday banjo nights. That's where I learned to make my own pizzas from scratch (except for the dough, and even Shakey's bought that readymade). I was sad that Shakey's disappeared, but we recently discovered one still operating in Boise, Idaho. They told us there are several Shakey's in Mexico because it's now a Mexican-owned company.
I also used to ask my mother to buy me these Chef Boy Ardee pizzas in a box. Also I believe I used to get her to buy me Gino's or Geno's brand. You'd get a can of sauce, a sack with enough pre-mixed flour, yeast and probably some baking powder to make a good sized pizza. And I think there was pepperoni. and cheese in the box too. I'm sure it was terrible but I loved making those pizzas. This would have been in the early 1960s.
Banjos? For our family, the draw was always the Cap'ns Galley Pizza & Pipes-- just called Pizza and Pipes-- because the Old Man was an huge George Wright fan, lamenting the day they tore down the San Francisco Fox Theater. Going to Pizza and Pipes as a kid was mesmerizing, what with the thunder of the huge pipe organ, the
distinct sourdough-like tangy pizza crust, and a sneaky sip of Pop's beer. Back then, no one blinked at couple teaching their kids about moderate libation in public.
Thanks for your reply. Sadly, the general consensus among serious Italian historians is that the Margherita story is fake. Even so, the pizza at that restaurant is excellent.
The episode is true, or at least was reported by newspapers in 1889, so made pizza positively famous all over Italy (it was already famous since it appeared in numerous novels, but usually not represented in a good light). What is considered false by historians is that Margherita was invented in that occasion since there are clear depictions and description of pizza Margherita before that. The episode simple gave that pizza its modern name.
I wonder how common it was, particularly outside of the major metropolitan areas. The first pizzeria in Venice is from 1947. Even in Milan, Spontini first began selling pizza by the slice in 1953 and is considered one of the first of its kind in Milan. A Santa Lucia opened as a Neapolitan restaurant in Milan, so isn't necessarily indicative of Italy as a whole.
It was not common outside of the major metropolitan areas.
Even today regional restaurants of other regions are mostly found in major metropolitan areas.
Milanese pizza al taglio, that is very different from Roman pizza al taglio, was an innovation. Pizza was so commonly recognisable in 1953 (even because it appeared in a ton of movies, even from before the war https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNKFM5svqOg ) that it was obvious to call that new thing "pizza" even if it was clearly not Neapolitan pizza.
As you correctly said, the first pizzeria in Venice, Conca d'Oro, opened in 1947 so before any numerically relevant American tourism. The spread of pizzerie in late 40's and 50's was driven by the increase in purchasing power of the population, the same happened with restaurants and bars of any kind.
To reiterate:
pizza is from Naples,
Italians did see it as a Neapolitan dish and still see as a Neapolitan dish today,
as for ALL regional foods, Italians also see it as Italian,
pizza was made famous in the rest of Italy by Neapolitan moving to other cities and because it appears in tons of novels and movies,
currently most popular variety of Neapolitan pizza is pizza Margherita which is the same as it was in 1889,
America as no role in this, pizza become popular in America and evolved independently in America as well as Brazil or Argentina.
Claiming that pizza was not known in Italy because "an American tourist couldn't find pizza in first class hotels" or "most Italian restaurants didn't serve pizza" is quite dishonest or disingenuous. Even today in Italy (even in Naples) pizza is not served in the vast majority of Italian restaurants and in basically none of first class hotels.
Sorry to be a little pedantic, but the relevant date to the argument is 1945, not whatever date matters for American tourists. Now given that pizza took off in the US after WWII, I don't think this really holds water, but 1947 is still late enough for the argument.
My argument is that some pizzerie opened outside of Naples well before WWII (for example Ricci in Rome and A Santa Lucia in Milan, but also Chimenti in Pisa), and the great number of pizzerie that opened in late 40's and 50's, for example the one in Venice, are a consequence of the economic growth of those years and increased internal movement.
This does not postulate that ALL cities in Italy had their first pizzeria before a certain year. For some industrial cities the first pizzeria opened in the 70's, during the highest point of south-to-north migration, and some smaller cities may to this day not have any pizzeria yet.
But the presence of some is enough to disprove the thesis of the article, that pizza was made popular in Italy by post-wwII American influence.
I'll agree that food was highly regional in Italy and pizza was not common beyond Naples until relatively recently, but it spread throughout Italy the same way other foods did, through internal migration of Italians. The idea that, '... it happened mostly because American tourists to Italy were desperately trying to find the “real thing”', is risible. Thousands of southern Italians moved to the industrial north after WWII (some before that). They brought their foods with them.
I am an American living in Turin, the fourth largest city and the first capital of the united Italy. At least 2/3 of the inhabitants have roots in the south of Italy. When I enter a local restaurant, unless it is specifically Piemontese, it will have a range of dishes from throughout Italy... most of them completely unknown to Americans.
It's also worth mentioning that American tourism was numerically irrelevant, accounting for only 5% of international visitors in the 50s and 60s and that, at the time, international tourists were far less than internal tourists.
While I think the hypothesis depends more upon American GIs stationed in Italy during and after WWII, I also think internal migration makes a bit more sense. Italian food was still largely confined to Italian-American communities in urban areas before WWII. Perhaps there was some cross-pollination and influence between Italian-American GIs craving their mother's cooking and cooks in Italy, but even then where would experienced pizza cooks come from if not from other areas of Italy?
The real truth is that pizza is a modern creation the most popular by product of the Columbian Exchange, tomatoes from Mexico meet bread from the old world, but it’s origin place, it’s birth is Naples, which yes at the time was not part of the modern Italian republic but the peninsula jutting into the Mediterranean on which it lies has been called Italia for millennia. Stop treating Italians differently than you would any other culture, you ruined a perfectly good article about pizza history with your unnecessarily inflammatory erasure of Italian culture. Go to naples & wear a signboard saying “ la pizza non è italiana” and “report” back to me. 2/2
A good article, well researched, interesting history that’s not necessarily new to those in the pizza industry, but just one issue. Why the clickbait title? Why the provocation of Italian’s & Italian diaspora? Pizza was a regional food, found almost exclusively in Naples, ok yes those of who understand our history already knew that. The diaspora spread it NYC, new haven, trenton, Buenos Aires, & São Paulo, ok yes we are aware & some us have visited all those various locations. Then comes the post war commodification & industrialization of the pizza industry by mostly non-Italian Americans, sure, again we are aware of this. But as an Italian-American I’m confused why you feel the need to erase the first two parts of the story. Quantity does not equal origin story. Pizza is Italian. You yourself clearly spell out it’s origins. Why the provocative erasure of our culture? Does starbucks global success mean Espresso isn’t Italian even though it’s invention is documented & it’s culture remains strong in Italy. Is Yoga not Indian? Is Day of the Dead not Mexican? It seems to me a trope that modern food writers insist on treating Italians differently, can you imagine writing this same article about Chinese food? 1/2
Moreover in Italy pizza is to this day still seen as a regional food and nevertheless, as for all other Italian regional foods, is seen as Italian.
And from Naples it spread to the rest of Italy, in Rome, Florence, Milan, Venice, Turin, Genoa... exactly in the same way as it did in New York, Trenton, Buenos Aires, São Paulo or even London: thanks to people from Naples moving into these cities.
It's interesting how some cultural differences are so difficult to understand for Americans.
Even now is extremely rare to be served pizza in a "first class hotel" in Italy. Not even in Naples.
Is simply something that in Italian culture is not considered appropriate for that specific setting.
But this gives no indication about the spread or popularity of pizza in Italy.
Pizza in Italy is to this day seen as something specifically Neapolitan, even if there are thousands of pizzerie around the country (as well as thousands of Sicilian, Sardinian, Abruzzese, Pugliese, Venetian, Ligurian restaurants).
First pizzerie outside of Naples opened the same way they opened in NY, Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo. With immigrants from Naples moving to other cities.
It's also quite bizarre that the author mentions the "pizza effect" and its inventor Agehananda Bharati since Bharati contradicts the article, claiming that pizzerie spread in Italy in the 20s and 30s (as it actually happened), not in the 50s or 60s
The Shakey’s in Dallas, at least, in the early 60s had the kitchen in the middle and on the larger side served beer, but us kids had to go to the smaller side which was dry. Liquor and evidently beer rules were strange in those days in Texas.
Later living in Houston, in the mid 70s, I would pick up Shakeys to go and take to my GF’s apartment. The carry out box hadn’t been perfected, and was only corrugated cardboard flat sheets held together on the sides with a primitive and ineffective tab system. Driving home in my new Triumph TR7, I placed the pizza on the console and attempted to hold it down with my right elbow. Taking a S curve, without slowing down, the pie slid out of the box and landed on the passenger seat, the still bubbling cheese going further afield than the crust. The dairy product fused itself to the fabric. Never was sure if was petrified cheese on the seat, or melted synthetic fabric, but the scar was never removed.
The guy who towed your car when it left you on the side of the road (yes, I too had a TR7) noted the stain on the plaid fabric, later. "it looks like a rolling doorstop..." - my father
My first car was a 1980 MGB. British automotive failure at its finest. I still love that car and am sorry I sold it.
LOL!
When I was a teenager, back in the 70s, my parents would take us to Shakey's a lot. It was a treat because, unlike hamburgers and hot dogs, you really couldn't make decent pizza at home back then. I don't recall much about the pizza but we were all addicted to those Mojo potatoes. The thing about kid's pizza is that parents usually kept it simple. They would usually order a pizza with pepperoni. (or a pizza where the other half was just cheese if someone didn't like pepperoni.) Then in college I was exposed to the Chicago style with tons of toppings. Usually now, the only time I have pizza is when they throw a pizza night at work where the bosses buy a bunch of cheap pizzas for us with a selection of pizzas with various toppings. (And get criticized at by the vegans for not having any decent vegan options.)
Thanks for the great article. Shakey's in Palm Springs, California was my formative pizza experience. I loved it. Big long tables with benches filled with baseball and softball teams celebrating their wins (or nursing their wounds over losses), families, music, a big window where you could watch the pizza makers at work, very large red plastic glasses filled with crushed ice and coke or your other favorite soft drink. This was around 1961 or so. They served wine from taps labeled "Burgundy" and "Chablis". In my memory the pizza was very good. Crispy crackerlike crust (delicious), good sauce and plenty of cheese. I'm not sure what I would make of it today but I remember it very fondly.
That's exactly the experience I remember growing up in Northern California in the late 60s and 70s. Exactly the same. And, like you, I'd be afraid to taste that pizza again because I remember it as being really good, and now I'm supposedly more sophisticated.
Thanks for such a well detailed article. My friend Norma Knepp and I have done extensive research on the Mastro's including hours of interviews with Frank's daughter Madeline and an article published in PMQ. Maybe we can connect more dots on their story together someday. Walter, owner of Smiling with Hope Pizza, Reno, NV. https://www.pmq.com/the-pizza-kings-the-strange-sad-story-of-the-industrys-greatest-and-most-tragic-visionaries
Thank you for the great comment and link. Knowing you're in Reno has made my life difficult because I now have to visit your pizzeria, but Reno is also home to one of my favorite restaurants, Louis Basque Corner. Too many choices for a one day visit. Cheers!
https://eccentricculinary.substack.com/p/basque-american-the-authentic-cuisine
Norma and I hope someday to fulfill Madeline's dream- to bring the Mastro story to the general public and clarify how much Frank did to make pizza what it is today. I use a stack of original Blodgett 1000 ovens. Madeline said her father finished designing it he called them perfection and he would never design another oven. Hopefully we will meet someday, and share a pizza.
I was ten or eleven when I had my first pizza and it came out of a Chef-Boy-Ardee box bought by my father, a WWII vet, who wanted us to taste pizza. We kids loved it, not knowing any better. My second adult job was at a Shakey's Pizza Parlor which featured a player piano and Friday banjo nights. That's where I learned to make my own pizzas from scratch (except for the dough, and even Shakey's bought that readymade). I was sad that Shakey's disappeared, but we recently discovered one still operating in Boise, Idaho. They told us there are several Shakey's in Mexico because it's now a Mexican-owned company.
I also used to ask my mother to buy me these Chef Boy Ardee pizzas in a box. Also I believe I used to get her to buy me Gino's or Geno's brand. You'd get a can of sauce, a sack with enough pre-mixed flour, yeast and probably some baking powder to make a good sized pizza. And I think there was pepperoni. and cheese in the box too. I'm sure it was terrible but I loved making those pizzas. This would have been in the early 1960s.
Banjos? For our family, the draw was always the Cap'ns Galley Pizza & Pipes-- just called Pizza and Pipes-- because the Old Man was an huge George Wright fan, lamenting the day they tore down the San Francisco Fox Theater. Going to Pizza and Pipes as a kid was mesmerizing, what with the thunder of the huge pipe organ, the
distinct sourdough-like tangy pizza crust, and a sneaky sip of Pop's beer. Back then, no one blinked at couple teaching their kids about moderate libation in public.
*sigh*
Meh. It's true that pizza largely remained a local Neapolitan dish in Italy until well after WW II. But in Napoli, Pizzeria Brandi goes back to 1780 and claims to have produced the first Margherita in 1890. https://culinarybackstreets.com/cities-category/naples/2021/brandi-pizzeria/
Thanks for your reply. Sadly, the general consensus among serious Italian historians is that the Margherita story is fake. Even so, the pizza at that restaurant is excellent.
As I said, it was a claim. Now, please note that the alternative story is that the Margherita is even older. https://culinarybackstreets.com/cities-category/naples/2021/brandi-pizzeria/
The episode is true, or at least was reported by newspapers in 1889, so made pizza positively famous all over Italy (it was already famous since it appeared in numerous novels, but usually not represented in a good light). What is considered false by historians is that Margherita was invented in that occasion since there are clear depictions and description of pizza Margherita before that. The episode simple gave that pizza its modern name.
In Italy is still considered a Neapolitan dish. But the first pizzeria in Rome (Ricci) opened in 1888 and the first in Milan in 1929 (A Santa Lucia).
I wonder how common it was, particularly outside of the major metropolitan areas. The first pizzeria in Venice is from 1947. Even in Milan, Spontini first began selling pizza by the slice in 1953 and is considered one of the first of its kind in Milan. A Santa Lucia opened as a Neapolitan restaurant in Milan, so isn't necessarily indicative of Italy as a whole.
It was not common outside of the major metropolitan areas.
Even today regional restaurants of other regions are mostly found in major metropolitan areas.
Milanese pizza al taglio, that is very different from Roman pizza al taglio, was an innovation. Pizza was so commonly recognisable in 1953 (even because it appeared in a ton of movies, even from before the war https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNKFM5svqOg ) that it was obvious to call that new thing "pizza" even if it was clearly not Neapolitan pizza.
As you correctly said, the first pizzeria in Venice, Conca d'Oro, opened in 1947 so before any numerically relevant American tourism. The spread of pizzerie in late 40's and 50's was driven by the increase in purchasing power of the population, the same happened with restaurants and bars of any kind.
To reiterate:
pizza is from Naples,
Italians did see it as a Neapolitan dish and still see as a Neapolitan dish today,
as for ALL regional foods, Italians also see it as Italian,
pizza was made famous in the rest of Italy by Neapolitan moving to other cities and because it appears in tons of novels and movies,
currently most popular variety of Neapolitan pizza is pizza Margherita which is the same as it was in 1889,
America as no role in this, pizza become popular in America and evolved independently in America as well as Brazil or Argentina.
Claiming that pizza was not known in Italy because "an American tourist couldn't find pizza in first class hotels" or "most Italian restaurants didn't serve pizza" is quite dishonest or disingenuous. Even today in Italy (even in Naples) pizza is not served in the vast majority of Italian restaurants and in basically none of first class hotels.
Sorry to be a little pedantic, but the relevant date to the argument is 1945, not whatever date matters for American tourists. Now given that pizza took off in the US after WWII, I don't think this really holds water, but 1947 is still late enough for the argument.
For which argument in particular?
My argument is that some pizzerie opened outside of Naples well before WWII (for example Ricci in Rome and A Santa Lucia in Milan, but also Chimenti in Pisa), and the great number of pizzerie that opened in late 40's and 50's, for example the one in Venice, are a consequence of the economic growth of those years and increased internal movement.
This does not postulate that ALL cities in Italy had their first pizzeria before a certain year. For some industrial cities the first pizzeria opened in the 70's, during the highest point of south-to-north migration, and some smaller cities may to this day not have any pizzeria yet.
But the presence of some is enough to disprove the thesis of the article, that pizza was made popular in Italy by post-wwII American influence.
It may interest you that Shakey's is still alive and well as the biggest pizza chain in the Philippines!
Thanks for that. I knew they were in the Philippines, but not that they were the biggest. Very cool.
there is still a shakey's in kyoto: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g298564-d3649235-Reviews-Shakey_s_Shinkyogoku-Kyoto_Kyoto_Prefecture_Kinki.html
Very cool detail! Thanks for that.
I'll agree that food was highly regional in Italy and pizza was not common beyond Naples until relatively recently, but it spread throughout Italy the same way other foods did, through internal migration of Italians. The idea that, '... it happened mostly because American tourists to Italy were desperately trying to find the “real thing”', is risible. Thousands of southern Italians moved to the industrial north after WWII (some before that). They brought their foods with them.
I am an American living in Turin, the fourth largest city and the first capital of the united Italy. At least 2/3 of the inhabitants have roots in the south of Italy. When I enter a local restaurant, unless it is specifically Piemontese, it will have a range of dishes from throughout Italy... most of them completely unknown to Americans.
Exactly.
It's also worth mentioning that American tourism was numerically irrelevant, accounting for only 5% of international visitors in the 50s and 60s and that, at the time, international tourists were far less than internal tourists.
While I think the hypothesis depends more upon American GIs stationed in Italy during and after WWII, I also think internal migration makes a bit more sense. Italian food was still largely confined to Italian-American communities in urban areas before WWII. Perhaps there was some cross-pollination and influence between Italian-American GIs craving their mother's cooking and cooks in Italy, but even then where would experienced pizza cooks come from if not from other areas of Italy?
I agree completely.
The real truth is that pizza is a modern creation the most popular by product of the Columbian Exchange, tomatoes from Mexico meet bread from the old world, but it’s origin place, it’s birth is Naples, which yes at the time was not part of the modern Italian republic but the peninsula jutting into the Mediterranean on which it lies has been called Italia for millennia. Stop treating Italians differently than you would any other culture, you ruined a perfectly good article about pizza history with your unnecessarily inflammatory erasure of Italian culture. Go to naples & wear a signboard saying “ la pizza non è italiana” and “report” back to me. 2/2
A good article, well researched, interesting history that’s not necessarily new to those in the pizza industry, but just one issue. Why the clickbait title? Why the provocation of Italian’s & Italian diaspora? Pizza was a regional food, found almost exclusively in Naples, ok yes those of who understand our history already knew that. The diaspora spread it NYC, new haven, trenton, Buenos Aires, & São Paulo, ok yes we are aware & some us have visited all those various locations. Then comes the post war commodification & industrialization of the pizza industry by mostly non-Italian Americans, sure, again we are aware of this. But as an Italian-American I’m confused why you feel the need to erase the first two parts of the story. Quantity does not equal origin story. Pizza is Italian. You yourself clearly spell out it’s origins. Why the provocative erasure of our culture? Does starbucks global success mean Espresso isn’t Italian even though it’s invention is documented & it’s culture remains strong in Italy. Is Yoga not Indian? Is Day of the Dead not Mexican? It seems to me a trope that modern food writers insist on treating Italians differently, can you imagine writing this same article about Chinese food? 1/2
Completely agree.
Moreover in Italy pizza is to this day still seen as a regional food and nevertheless, as for all other Italian regional foods, is seen as Italian.
And from Naples it spread to the rest of Italy, in Rome, Florence, Milan, Venice, Turin, Genoa... exactly in the same way as it did in New York, Trenton, Buenos Aires, São Paulo or even London: thanks to people from Naples moving into these cities.
It's interesting how some cultural differences are so difficult to understand for Americans.
Even now is extremely rare to be served pizza in a "first class hotel" in Italy. Not even in Naples.
Is simply something that in Italian culture is not considered appropriate for that specific setting.
But this gives no indication about the spread or popularity of pizza in Italy.
Pizza in Italy is to this day seen as something specifically Neapolitan, even if there are thousands of pizzerie around the country (as well as thousands of Sicilian, Sardinian, Abruzzese, Pugliese, Venetian, Ligurian restaurants).
First pizzerie outside of Naples opened the same way they opened in NY, Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo. With immigrants from Naples moving to other cities.
It's also quite bizarre that the author mentions the "pizza effect" and its inventor Agehananda Bharati since Bharati contradicts the article, claiming that pizzerie spread in Italy in the 20s and 30s (as it actually happened), not in the 50s or 60s
👏👏👏